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Supreme Being
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| ayottedan (9/11/2008)
Olimpass (9/11/2008)
I believe God cannot be revealed in sight. Only though the heart, as in faith and love. All existence is because of God. It's revealed in the fact of our existence. No one will ever be able to explain existence because it's the work of God. Love for someone can not be proven through sight. It's only in your own heart your love for someone exists.Of course you believe your God can not be revealed. How else can you justify your belief? Faith and love do not come from the heart, but the brain. These, and all of the other human emotions are real. However, blind faith is imaginary. Imaginary gods, throughout man's history, have been used to explain everything that science could not. Many great thinkers through time, and today, were prosecuted for chipping away, a little at a time, their society's God of choice role through scientific discovery. We have taken it pretty much as far back as the big bang, so all that is left for the non-extremist "believers" to say is, "how did that get there". It must be god! Problem solved! No more need for scientific discovery. Those who are now exploring the origins of our universe can close shop and go home. Everyone here is trying to justify their beliefs and still the outcome is unknown. I know it's from the brain, the heart is an expression. Blind faith is imaginary and so are all theories. There's a decillion things we still know nothing about and create "imaginary" theories. Imagination is what has also helped create our future in both good and bad ways. The shop can stay open 24-7 and it still wont be enough time. |
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Supreme Being
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| Krispy Kirk (9/16/2008)But for every Lee Strobel there is a John Loftus. Loftus turned his back on a life in the ministry, embraced his growing disbelief, "came out" about it and wrote a book. Now, the big question is who is less intellectually dishonest? The supposed "former atheist" who makes millions writing books full of "evidence" for Christians who need reassuring that they aren't wasting their time on religion? Or the guy who's been there and done that and finally says "that's enough". Lookup Loftus' "Why I Became An Atheist"on amazon.com and tell me you are willing to read it!
That would be a book I wouldn't mind reading. I already own a few books that are totally opposite of my own personal views. You might remember that I have about 4 or 5 books by Robert Anton Wilson. Plus I own many other books by occultists and such.
But anyway...I just went on to one of John Loftus's blogs, and he seems to think that the Christianity he believed in, and the age of the earth and universe put forth by astronomers, are contradictory. Thus, this became a point (I'm sure there are more) in which he began to doubt his christian beliefs, since he believes wholeheartedly that the universe is billions of years old. This is typical of people who make the Bible say something it doesn't actually say. It's like the people who interpreted the Bible to say that the earth is the center of the universe, when it never states such a thing.
[b]John Loftus states: There are three major things that happened in my life that changed my thinking. They all happened in the space of about five years, from 1991-1996. These are the three things that changed my thinking: 1) A major crisis, 2) plus information, 3) minus a sense of a loving, caring, Christian community. For me it was an assault of major proportions that if I still believed in the devil would say it was orchestrated by the legions of hell.
Jesus stated in the parable of the sower (Matthew 13) that there would be those "believers" who would "fall away"...."when trouble or persecution comes." 2 of Loftus's reasons for his deconversion from Christianity is due to his major crisis and his disappointment with other believers and their lack of love. This proves that his understanding of a Christian life is warped and he never had a good understanding of it in the first place. Regardless of the long list of his many Christian schools and ministries of which he was a part, he failed to grasp that Jesus claimed that trials and tribulations are a major part of the Christian life. Even John the Baptist began to doubt his own faith in Jesus while he was in prison (Luke 7:20), yet Jesus said that there was "No one born of women who is greater than John the Baptist" (Matthew 11:11). Those with true faith will remain in the faith. The others will not make it.
Loftus wrote: "Today I am pretty much guilt free. That is, I have no guilt in regards to the Christian duties mentioned above. I am free of the need to do most of the things I felt I had to do because I was expressing my gratitude for what God had done. And yet, I am still grateful for my present life, even more so in many ways. I love life. I’m living life to the hilt, pretty much guilt free, primarily because my ethical standards aren’t as high. In fact, I believe the Christian ethical standards are simply impossible for anyone to measure up to. Think about it, according to Jesus I should feel guilty for not just what I do, but for what I think about, lusting, hating, coveting, etc. I’d like every person who reads this book to experience the freedom I have found. It is to you that I dedicate this book."
Jesus does NOT want us to feel guilty. But he did say that he wants us to be "convicted" of the truth that we are sinners. We are all guilty of sin, but all that guilt was placed on Jesus on the cross. If Loftus kept feeling guilty all the time as a Christian, then that was not God making him feel that way. In the Christian faith, we are now declared "innocent." Satan is called the "accuser" and that's where most guilt comes from. It amazes me, with all his supposed knowlege of the Christian faith, that Loftus didn't understand that nobody lives up to the Christian faith, since it is impossible to do. So why feel guilty, when your guilt has actually been taken away from us by Christ? For some unknown reason, Loftus simply didn't understand that "there is now NO CONDEMNATION (no guilt) for those who are in Christ Jesus" (Romans 8:1) There are chapters and chapters regarding this throughout the New Testament. No one is saved because they do X amount of good works. They are saved because they trust in Christ to be their messiah for them. If we could save ourselves by good works, then there would be no need to take on the sins of the world as Jesus has done. The Bible itself states that we cannot measure up to the holiness of God. This should be a relief, instead of a burden. Knowing that we are unable to live a truly righteous life, we should actually stop trying to be righteous in our own power. We will fail most of the time. Jesus has become our righteousness for us (2 Peter 1:1). What Loftus in effect has done, is he has actually placed himself under condemnation and guilt again by rejecting Christ, who takes all that away, even though he now feels "free from guilt."
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Supreme Being
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| The "Book" needs an updating by the author...if you know what I'm saying! Seriously, when that thing was written, people were afraid of it and in reverence of it. But, now, science has given tangible proof to things that used to be explained as something only "God" could understand. Well...not anymore. There's really only one. lingering "thing" that stands in the way of total enlightenment...that is "Where, how and when did it all begin? Hey, if I die and it ends up being a big white bearded guy sitting in a golden chair and everyone is wearing white robes, then I'm either in the Heaven of the Bible or I'm the newest member of the KKK (pssst...'cause they wear white robes, too) 
If there were to be an update, then I wonder how God would write it. Certainly, it would be in the language of this day and time and not all the "thee" and "thou" Hey, maybe God would write it in rap form....or maybe he would scat it. Whaddya think?
hi. |
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Supreme Being
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| O-Lugs (10/11/2008)
The "Book" needs an updating by the author...if you know what I'm saying! Seriously, when that thing was written, people were afraid of it and in reverence of it. But,Hey, if I die and it ends up being a big white bearded guy sitting in a golden chair and everyone is wearing white robes, then I'm either in the Heaven of the Bible or I'm the newest member of the KKK (pssst...'cause they wear white robes, too)
If there were to be an update, then I wonder how God would write it. Certainly, it would be in the language of this day and time and not all the "thee" and "thou" Hey, maybe God would write it in rap form....or maybe he would scat it. Whaddya think?
The Bible is actually 66 individual books written over a period of something like 1500 years. The Thee's and Thou's is mostly in the English "King James Version" and most modern english translations (like the NIV and NASB) use common every day language. The Old Testament books were originally written in Hebrew and Chaldean, and the New Testament was originally written in Greek.
O-Lugs, I'm not quite sure what you mean by your statement ... "now, science has given tangible proof to things that used to be explained as something only "God" could understand. Well...not anymore. There's really only one. lingering "thing" that stands in the way of total enlightenment...that is "Where, how and when did it all begin?" Could you explain that statement a bit more?
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| I agree. That was a very poorly written thought!
I mean that, in the days of Biblical writing (even over the course of 1500 years), the general population was illiterate. So, what happened, as a result of that, was that there was a separation of "classes" of people -in essence, those who could read and write and those who couldn't. There were a LOT more people that couldn't read and write (even over the course of 1500 years) and the result was that the illiterate came to "depend" on the literate.
I reckon it wasn't too long before the literati realized there was a lot of power in the written word -especially if one could make the claim that God was responsible for the divine intervention that caused it to be written in the first place. How DARE anyone argue with "God", after all?
But, over time, many of the things that couldn't have been explained when the Bible was written, have, since, been explained by science. And just look at the advancements in knowledge the world has seen in the last 100 years! Flight...Trips to outer space!...Medical advancements...The drum set!!...etc.Today, we understand that God doesn't blot out the Sun to punish us for our sins. We know that it's because the moon intervenes between Earth and Sun and that causes what we know as a solar eclipse. That's just one example of something that used to be inexplicable and written off as something God was doing.
Ironically, nowadays, it is the Bible, itself, that most of the general population can't really understand. Modern society has become illiterate in regards to the Bible. Many people, to this very day, do not question the Bible, out of the fear that it's a sin to question the word of God! This fear of God is inherited in many families. Fear (of God) is thought to be a good thing, in some cases. So, right out of the chute, FEAR is at the core of the control that God continues to exert over mankind.
The hallmarks of the Bible, in my opinion, spelled out a certain social order that was somehow necessary in its own time (1500+ years), and was oftentimes "abused" to the benefit of the clergy and the detriment of the congregation.
People are like herd animals. When a few key cows make a decision to go in a direction, then the others follow. The followers don't know why they are following. All they know is that they don't want to be alone. They'll agree to anything that keeps them in a huddle and warm.
But, people are also individuals and some key individuals are interested in advancing their own understanding beyond that which was decided for them by way of "primitive" writings that, in many cases, no longer apply to what has, subsequently been explained.
phew!
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Supreme Being
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| O-Lugs (10/17/2008)
I agree. That was a very poorly written thought!
I mean that, in the days of Biblical writing (even over the course of 1500 years), the general population was illiterate. So, what happened, as a result of that, was that there was a separation of "classes" of people -in essence, those who could read and write and those who couldn't. There were a LOT more people that couldn't read and write (even over the course of 1500 years) and the result was that the illiterate came to "depend" on the literate.
I reckon it wasn't too long before the literati realized there was a lot of power in the written word -especially if one could make the claim that God was responsible for the divine intervention that caused it to be written in the first place. How DARE anyone argue with "God", after all?
But, over time, many of the things that couldn't have been explained when the Bible was written, have, since, been explained by science. And just look at the advancements in knowledge the world has seen in the last 100 years! Flight...Trips to outer space!...Medical advancements...The drum set!! ...etc.Today, we understand that God doesn't blot out the Sun to punish us for our sins. We know that it's because the moon intervenes between Earth and Sun and that causes what we know as a solar eclipse. That's just one example of something that used to be inexplicable and written off as something God was doing.
Ironically, nowadays, it is the Bible, itself, that most of the general population can't really understand. Modern society has become illiterate in regards to the Bible. Many people, to this very day, do not question the Bible, out of the fear that it's a sin to question the word of God! This fear of God is inherited in many families. Fear (of God) is thought to be a good thing, in some cases. So, right out of the chute, FEAR is at the core of the control that God continues to exert over mankind.
The hallmarks of the Bible, in my opinion, spelled out a certain social order that was somehow necessary in its own time (1500+ years), and was oftentimes "abused" to the benefit of the clergy and the detriment of the congregation.
People are like herd animals. When a few key cows make a decision to go in a direction, then the others follow. The followers don't know why they are following. All they know is that they don't want to be alone. They'll agree to anything that keeps them in a huddle and warm.
But, people are also individuals and some key individuals are interested in advancing their own understanding beyond that which was decided for them by way of "primitive" writings that, in many cases, no longer apply to what has, subsequently been explained.
phew!
Well said. I can't really argue with much of your post.
Though I believe the Bible to be the word of God, I believe in it in spite of all the attacks against it and all the religions that abuse and use it to control or manipulate people for evil purposes. This is why I admire many people who understood that this was happening in their time and stood up against the abuse of people in the name of "Scripture." For example, Martin Luther ( A Catholic priest) caused a huge reform to take place when he condemned the Catholic church for many of its practices and "doctrines" that go against what the Bible states and thus holds people captive (with fear, as you rightly say) within the church. Jesus himself condemned the religious authorities of his day who "preached" the Bible. He said..."Woe to you , teachers of the law, and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are." Matthew 23:13
If you look at Christianity at its roots and what Jesus taught, there was no established "church," no denominations or even Christian church buildings, for the first 3 centuries. Yet Christianity flourished during that time and multiplied rapidly, amidst great persecution from the Roman Empire. Once Christianity became "accepted" and organized into a "state" religion, and Christian churches sprung up and people were placed into powerful positions as Bishops and deacons etc, this is where the contamination and abuses really spread within Christianity. Like you stated, those who had more knowledge and literacy used their position to take advantage of those who were less apt to even know what the Bible even stated at all, but had to take their word for it. This is why I plead with all of you to look into Scripture for oneself, without all the extra-biblical crap that exists now or in years past, and you may be surprised how much you may actually agree with it.
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